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satanisdead |
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Hebrews 11 is the bridge. Basically, if one has Active Faith, it will produce good works. So, if as James says one has Active faith, they will
have Good Works. Paul is correct that one is saved by faith, Paul is NOT discussing Santification at that point. Later in Pauls' letters he speaks about
Santification or being transformed into the image of Christ. James is speaking to Jewish people in a way that they would understand active faith, and Paul is
speaking to gentiles in the way that they would understand salvation.
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ASongOfDegrees |
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Paul and James were speaking of two different periods in Abraham's life. Paul was referring to Gen. 15 and James years later to Gen. 22. Paul was NOT
saying that we are saved liked Abraham was. He was just using Abraham as an example to show that he was justified before the law ever existed.
Romans 4 16] Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, [17] (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. [18] Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. [19] And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: [20] He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; [21] And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. [22] And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. [23] Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; [24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; [25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification Notcie that Abraham was also justified AGAIN in Gen. 17! Three different times are given in Abraham's life. BUT ONLY ONE PERIOD IN THE CHRISTIAN'S LIFE. Romans 4 [24] But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; [25] Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. At the initial faith in the gospel. No proving it with works later. Abraham hadn't the slightest clue about being born again; the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the church, or salvation as we know it today. This is the gospel Abraham believed in order to be saved. Gal. 3:8- And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. The gospel Abraham had to believed was "In thee shall all nations be blessed." That's it! And he had to keep that faith and prove with works like he did in Gen. 22. (How could all nations be blessed in him if he has to sacrifice Issac?) WE DON'T! Christ did the works already for us. We are saved by "the faith of Christ" not by our works being perfected by our faith like it says in James 2. Notice the papists never finish the passage in James 2? James 2:25- Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Nothing about believed on the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ there. You're a deluded fool if you think there was. Rahab was still considered a harlot when she hid the messengers. You're on dangerous ground when you start to use James 2 as salvation doctrine for this age. James is giving , at the least, an EXAMPLE (not hard doctrine of salvation) of real faith and , at the most, he's referring to tribulation salvation. Wil |
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Deborah1611 |
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Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, ... . |
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Theresa |
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Heb412. Your posting is helping me clear up some questions, but I am new to the Dispensations. I've going to throw my remaining confusion into the ring and
please forgive me for not providing Scripture references.
1] We know that at the Second Coming the 'dead in Christ' shall rise FIRST! 2] Abraham was given knowledge of the Promise, received it in FAITH, but not a witness to HIM-Jesus Christ and will reign with Christ in the New Kingdom 3] Rev. 4: 4 - John was given the vision accounted in Rev. It has been suggested that Abraham is one of the 24 Elders who are in Heaven NOW! Is this true? Or do they also await the the first resurrection? 4] So if the suggestion is that Abraham IS there does this mean that the NEW WORLD dispensation has been in effect all along? Much the same as God's Law IS ALWAYS IN EFFECT though it
appears the Vatican is in control......
Is this 'futurism'? Please don't laugh...DUH! I don't think I am 'thinking too much.' But, serious, serious confusion here......
"But, Beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; having even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 17-25 |
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Heb412 |
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Theresa,
Always happy to know that I've been of help to a fellow Christian
Your points: 1] Correct. 2] Correct. 3] "It has been suggested that Abraham is one of the 24 Elders who are in Heaven NOW! Is this true?" It is true that he's in heaven now, as are all those who died believers, but as to the identity of the twenty-four elders we can only speculate. 4] "...does this mean that the NEW WORLD dispensation has been in effect all along?" That's a new one on me I was not laughing
"at" you
This current dispensation is called "the dispensation of the grace of God", Eph. 3:2 and when it's over and unlike now, salvation once again will depend on faith plus works. Failure to be aware of this Bible truth is why those who cannot or who will not rightly divide God's word find "contradictions" between Jesus Christ and Paul and between Paul and Peter. If when you say "God's Law IS ALWAYS IN EFFECT" you mean that He is always in ultimate control, then I'd agree. However, He has given, again temporarily, the reign over this "present evil world" to Satan who is called the "god of this world". Have I managed to remove any of your confusion? I hope so
Heb412
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, and ONE Holy Bible, the KJB 1611!
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Alexandra1611 |
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I had a thought.
The dispensation of the Law and the Tribulation are a bit different. While with the Law, you were required to obey commandments, during the Tribulation you have to show your faith by good works. Am I right? If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. |
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Heb412 |
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Alexandra, While with the Law, you were required to obey commandments, during the Tribulation you have to show your faith by good works. During the tribulation, keeping the commandments is also a requirement: Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Heb412
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, and ONE Holy Bible, the KJB 1611!
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Theresa |
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Okay, thanks Heb...I'm still 'processing' all this information.
Tribulation 'faith with works' - by 'WORKS' these are the testifying and winning souls to Christ Works? Is this also to perform DEEDS?
Last Edited By: Theresa
09/30/08 08:03 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Heb412 |
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Theresa,
Tribulation 'faith with works' - by 'WORKS' these are the testifying and winning souls to Christ Works? There will be no more winning lost souls for they will be "saved" who endure to the end and this makes clear why "the church" won't be here for if there were Christians preaching "believe and be saved" they would be guilty of preaching another gospel. Or does this mean to perform DEEDS work, feeding the poor, etc. plus testifying? It means "enduring".
It means going through the tribulation without worshipping the beast: Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. If you'll keep in mind always that the earthly kindgom is for the Jews, it will help you immensely, I believe, in keeping things straight
Heb412
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, and ONE Holy Bible, the KJB 1611!
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Alexandra1611 |
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Heb412 wrote:All right. Now would that be keeping commandments PLUS works, or would keeping the commandments be considered works? Naturally I don't plan to be here then...but maybe, just maybe, this might be helpful to someone who is here during the Tribulation. If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. |
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Heb412 |
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Alexandra, Rev. 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them. Heb412
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, and ONE Holy Bible, the KJB 1611!
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Theresa |
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One, the Dispensations Chart I have shows the Rapture occurring at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation,
So, if we escape the 'rounding up' why are we told to 'endure.' There's conflict here between the two. Aren't we enduring now and in the 7th trumpet? ![]()
"But, Beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; having even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 17-25 |
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Alexandra1611 |
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There's an article there called "The Difference is in the Dispensations." I found that article REALLY helpful.
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. |
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Theresa |
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Duh! I had it but stopped at the chart. Thanks. See you all later.
"But, Beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; having even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 17-25 |
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Heb412 |
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Theresa, So, if we escape the 'rounding up' why are we told to 'endure.' There's conflict here between the two. "We" aren't told to endure, we are told to believe and be saved. Those who must endure unto the end to be saved are under a different gospel and a different dispensation. Observe... Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what
shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Heb412
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, and ONE Holy Bible, the KJB 1611!
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Theresa |
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I just received this private message from someone named bigdave3119 -
Theresa, in all honestly, you are one very sick person. Everything that happens is the fault of a catholic.. Who is going to believe what you say when it is so obvious that your entire agenda is to put down a religion that you hate? I suggest that you concentrate on practising your own beliefs Reading your post I believe that you have a severe mental problem and need to get help!! I mean that!! You need much prayer. you need to seek the lord and follow his will. I hope you take heed, Concerned for your soul!!..... SO HEB412 AND ALEXANDRA JUST WHO IS THIS little dave and why can't he post this on the board. See the Catholics invented psychiatry......then they totally brainwash their minions.
"But, Beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; having even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 17-25 |
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Heb412 |
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Theresa, Big Dive is just another of the "hit and run" Romanuts who have neither the nerve nor the knowledge to stand toe-to-toe with a Bible believer. They also take great joy in attacking the women folk, brave soldiers of Rome that they are. Heb412
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, and ONE Holy Bible, the KJB 1611!
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Theresa |
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Here's the cluster of RomaNUTS and their little gossip section. Notice how much these guys love me....just how much power they have given me....naturally I
am merely a p.s. to all their assaults on you.
http://friendshipgarden10...m/reply/66044#reply-66044
"But, Beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; having even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 17-25 |
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Alexandra1611 |
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He's a nut, nuff said.
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. |
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Theresa |
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Shoot, I had hoped BigDUPE had
'potential'.
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of Lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of
turning." James 1: 17
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